The Gaming Den

I'm about to start a Tome campaign and one of my players wants to be a Druid. I'm a little wary of allowing Natural Spell, the Druid's go to Feat. Effectively its a class feature at level 6 that replaces a Feat, because noone in their right mind would pass up the chance to break the "Combat Monster or Spellcaster" dynamic of the class wide open by simply becoming both at once. So, in order to lessen the power somewhat and bring Natural Spell into the Tome Feat fold, how does the following replacement Feat look?

Natural Spell [Metamagic]
You are at one with your inner beast and can harness it to powerful magical effect. But in a cool Vampire way, not like a furry way. What??!?
This Feats scales with the highest level of Druid spells you can cast.
Max Spell: Benefit
1: You may “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any spell from the Animal clerical domain of the same level or lower.
3: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. Doing so requires a Concentration check (DC20 + spell level). If the check is failed the spell is lost and the action wasted.
6: As a swift action you may expend a use of Wild Shape to increase your size by one level, gaining all the usual bonuses and penalties. This size increase lasts until the start of your next turn.
9: You may talk and use verbal or somatic spell components normally whilst in Wild Shape. You may now use Wild Shape as a swift action.

I'm hoping this gives some flavourful abilities and tones down Wildshape casting cheese. So, would giving spells a failure chance in Wild Shape meaningfully affect the Druid at all?

Wait, how does this tone anything down?

Well, here's the thinking:

Applying a spell failure chance to casting spells whilst Wild Shaped means that a Druid may actually have to turn back once in a while, so Wildshapes/day becomes a more meaningful limitation. In addition some spells (e.g. Magic Fang et al.) can only be cast on an animal, so the Druid has to be in Wild Shape to self buff. This means a Druid won't always have all his buffs on every day. Maybe the DC is too low, or it should restrict you from taking 10 in order to provide an actual chance of failure once you get past level 7.

Now, as Natural spell is no longer auto-cast while Wild shaped, it is lower in power and therefore can become a component of a Tome Feat. The level 1 ability is mainly flavour - its not going to be that useful most of the time. The level 6 ability is there to tax your Wild Shapes / day. I was thinking now that you actually need to turn back now and again having something else that uses your Wildshape uses would create an interesting choice in game. The level 9 was just saying that at level 17 casting spells whilst in Wildshape isn't actually that bad. I mean, you have Shapechange.

I take it you think the nerf is ineffectual or the other bonuses are too good? Do you think Druids would still be good enough if I just take Natural Spell out altogether?

Assuming a Wildshaped CON of 10 (providing no ability bonus to Concentration checks) I get the following data points:

• Level and Item Bonus	Concentration Ranks	Ability Bonus	Total Bonus
  1	4	0	Irrelevant
  2	5	0	Irrelevant
  3	6	0	Irrelevant
  4	7	1	Irrelevant
  5	8	1	+14 vs. DC 23 (40% chance of failure)
  6	9	1	+16 vs. DC 23 (25% chance of failure)
  7	10	1	+18 vs. DC 24 (25% chance of failure)
  8	11	1	+20 vs. DC 24 (15% chance of failure)
  9	12	1	+22 vs. DC 25 (10% chance of failure)
  10	13	2	+25 vs. DC 25 (Auto Success)
  11	14	2	+27 vs. DC 26 (Auto Success)
  12	15	2	+31 vs. DC 26 (Auto Success)
  13	16	2	+34 vs. DC 27 (Auto Success)
  14	17	2	+36 vs. DC 27 (Auto Success)
  15	18	2	+38 vs. DC 28 (Auto Success)
  16	19	3	+41 vs. DC 28 (Auto Success)
  17	20	3	Irrelevant
  18	21	3	Irrelevant
  19	22	3	Irrelevant
  20	23	3	Irrelevant

  
  

It is highly unlikely that a Druid will be wildshaped into a form with no CON bonus at any level after 4th. This feat "reigns" in the crazy (and you really gotta use the little air quotes there) for a maximum of 5 levels, and is otherwise a straight-up power-up to the most bestest class in the game. Not that I dislike power-ups, au contraire, but I can see Kaelik or Ubernoob blasting through the walls like a duo of kool-aid men shouting "VERTICAL POWER!" in full Caps Lock any minute now.

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EDIT: MATH FAIL! I was counting the scaling enchantment bonus to CON like every bonus number added to the Ability Modifier! Oops! This has been fixed, and does not change the overall conclusions of this post at all.

That size ability is pretty useless too.

Trade a use of wildshape for the equivalent of a 1st level spell that lasts on turn?

No way.

If you want to reign it in at all, it needs to be DC 15 + 2x spell level, if not higher (the attribute bonuses Hicks listed make me tempted to suggest 3x spell level, but I haven't checked them at all, and 4x or more if you expect characters to have Concentration items and don't mind making them mandatory). Skill ranks just scale twice as fast as spell levels, and you need to account for that, and attribute bonuses, and maybe skill itesm on top of that, if you want any sort of regular success rate as you grow in the skill and get new spell levels.

Yeah, level 3 is shitty, because it's either an ass to the face, for like two levels, or an auto success, because you min maxxed concentration.

And level 9 is super ass, because you can already autosucceed the check at the level no matter how retarded you are.

Oops. I had a math fail. Scaling CON magic items add to the CON score not the CON modifier. The table is now fixed, and the overall conclusion is unaltered.

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Personally, I do not think Natural Spell needs to be upgraded, as it is the second most powerful feat in the game (right after any [Leadership] feat), but if you wanted to upgrade it anyway (as a way to reign in the crazy) let Natural Spell be a [Metamagic] feat that any caster can take that allows any spell that is 1 spell level, or more, less than the caster's maximum spell level be automatically Silent and Stilled. BAM! Simultaneously boosts two other weak [Metamagic] feats, automagically scales with your maximum spell level, and slaps Natural Spell on the wrist in the same motion.

You could just ban Natural Spell. That *is* an option.

Hicks wrote:It is highly unlikely that a Druid will be wildshaped into a form with no CON bonus at any level after 4th. This feat "reigns" in the crazy (and you really gotta use the little air quotes there) for a maximum of 5 levels, and is otherwise a straight-up power-up to the most bestest class in the game.

Thanks for that table Hicks. I was forgetting that CON would increase whilst in most Wild Shapes. As my intention was to provide a Feat with more options but less raw power than Natural Spell it appears this incarnation doesn't quite do that at the moment.

Vnonymous wrote:Trade a use of wildshape for the equivalent of a 1st level spell that lasts on turn?

As I mentioned in this thread Enlarge does not give all the bonuses of a normal size increase. Plus this can be activated as a swift action? I really don't want to power up Druids too much with this option but I wanted something that would tempt them to use those Wild Shape uses.

ubernoob wrote:You could just ban Natural Spell. That *is* an option.

And its one I'm giving serious consideration to. It would mean no Magic Fang buffing at all though, would that be a problem against enemies with DR?

A druid who can't cast spells in wildshape doesn't belong in a tome game at all.

Here is what I do: don't restrict it to druids and wildshape. Let all shapechangers use it, regardless of how they change shape.

Kaelik wrote:A druid who can't cast spells in wildshape doesn't belong in a tome game at all.

Well, this is assuming that powering down the druid was actually the intent (like, if the game didn't have flask rogues and instead had sword and board gimp rogues). Generally speaking, druids have a pretty solid spell list and a pocket tank to start with.

I'm going to be using +5 skill items only rather than the scaling BoG skill boosters. If the Concentration DC is set to (20 + 2*spell level), and assuming the Druid is Wildshaped into something with a 20 Con for a +5 Con bonus and has a skill item, I get the following results:

• Level	Concentration Ranks	Ability and Item Bonus	Total Bonus vs DC
  1	4	10	Irrelevant
  2	5	10	Irrelevant
  3	6	10	Irrelevant
  4	7	10	Irrelevant
  5	8	10	+18 vs. DC 26 (40% chance of failure)
  6	9	10	+19 vs. DC 26 (35% chance of failure)
  7	10	10	+20 vs. DC 28 (40% chance of failure)
  8	11	10	+21 vs. DC 28 (35% chance of failure)
  9	12	10	+22 vs. DC 30 (40% chance of failure)
  10	13	10	+23 vs. DC 30 (35% chance of failure)
  11	14	10	+24 vs. DC 32 (40% chance of failure)
  12	15	10	+25 vs. DC 32 (35% chance of failure)
  13	16	10	+26 vs. DC 34 (40% chance of failure)
  14	17	10	+27 vs. DC 34 (35% chance of failure)
  15	18	10	+28 vs. DC 36 (40% chance of failure)
  16	19	10	+29 vs. DC 36 (35% chance of failure)
  17	20	10	Irrelevant
  18	21	10	Irrelevant
  19	22	10	Irrelevant
  20	23	10	Irrelevant

  
  

The failure rate listed is only for your highest level spells, lower level spells get progressively easier. The downsides are this kind of makes a Concentration item mandatory and if you Wildshape into something with a low Con you have a harder time casting. This would make the level 17 power more relevant.

As a little background, the game is going to be Core + Tome (so no DMM, no Incantatrix etc.), and I'd like to remove all the normal Feats so I can just hand people the Tome Feats list and say "use these", hence my interest in Tome style Metamagic Feats and this new version of Natural Spell.

My take was that casting whilst Wildshaped would be like casting in armor for Arcane casters - you can do it, but with a non-zero chance of spell failure.

Hicks wrote:let Natural Spell be a [Metamagic] feat that any caster can take that allows any spell that is 1 spell level, or more, less than the caster's maximum spell level be automatically Silent and Stilled.

Well, those Metamagic Feats i linked to kind of do something similar already. I suppose I could just let the Druid use those and scrap Natural Spell altogether.

You rein something in, folks. A king reigns over his kingdom.

This has been a friendly reminder from your neighborhood pedant. Have a nice day.

Yeah, but don't you want to reign over the crazy folk?

Seriously though, there are already examples of using Wild Shape uses to do things for a round or so in Complete Divine. They are shit, yes, but at level 6 you can use a wild shape use to full attack on charges for a round or get the Fly spell on yourself for an hour. At level 12 you can gain lots of immunities for 10 minutes (I hadn't actually noticed that feat, and it gives some very nice immunities). Whereas here at level 11 with this feat you get bigger for a single round. Whoop-tee-fucking-doo.

I'm not quite sure since Wild Shape and Polymorph are all fucked up, but doesn't Animal Growth do the same thing but better in every and for 1 minute per level at level 9, as well as affecting your animal companion?

Red_Rob wrote:My take was that casting whilst Wildshaped would be like casting in armor for Arcane casters - you can do it, but with a non-zero chance of spell failure.

No. You fail D&D.

If casting in wildshape is like casting in armor, then you don't do it.

You are either a Shaman instead of a Druid, or you just fight as a bear, and you kinda suck.

a 50% chance of your spell just not being cast when you spent an actual combat action on it is fucking retarded.

Just use Tome Polymorph fixes and stop trying to make Druids be characters that aren't allowed to cast spells.

NineInchNall wrote:You rein something in, folks. A king reigns over his kingdom.

This has been a friendly reminder from your neighborhood pedant. Have a nice day.

Well, at least I learnt something today.

Kaelik wrote:If casting in wildshape is like casting in armor, then you don't do it.

Yeah, I came to this realisation myself after some thinking on the subject. You don't see Wizards in armour for a reason. I guess spell failure isn't a good mechanic to use to rein in Natural Spell.